BONUS: JANUARY 6TH COMMITTEE HEARING DEBRIEF WITH FORMER HOUSE MAJORITY LEADER DICK GEPHARDT

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Weston Wamp: I'm Weston Wamp, and this is “Swamp Stories,” presented by Issue One. 

Weston Wamp: Hi, I’m Weston Wamp, and this is a special series of “Swamp Stories: episodes focused on the January 6th hearings.

Over the next few weeks, a bipartisan committee in Congress is holding a series of historic hearings to shed light on the January 6, 2021 attack on the U.S. Capitol. 

On the first night of the hearings of the House Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol, voices from across the political spectrum commented on the good faith, serious approach of the committee.

Still, it has faced an immense challenge, and has been relentlessly attacked by many of my fellow Republicans.

But let’s be clear: there is ample evidence that the attack was a coordinated effort, fueled by disinformation, to overturn the will of the people and prevent a peaceful transfer of power. But there’s still so much we don’t know about what happened, and why. 

Preventing another January 6th isn't a partisan issue. Both sides should use this opportunity to make sure such an attack never happens again. 

Throughout the month, we will bring you in-depth analysis by the country’s leading political experts of the hearings and dive into what we’re learning and how the country is reacting. 

Today, I’m speaking with Dick Gephardt, former House Majority Leader from Missouri, member of Issue One’s ReFormers Caucus, and a part of the National Council on Election Integrity.

Weston Wamp: Well, for the first in a series of conversations and reactions to the January 6th hearings, I'm honored to be joined by Former House Majority Leader Dick Gephardt. A person who I knew quite well, growing up knew of you, and then have been honored to work alongside you in different capacities at Issue One. To begin with, what are your takeaways from what we saw last night in the first of the hearings?

Dick Gephardt: Well, I think it was a good start at trying to convey to the American people what actually happened on January the 6th. Who was involved, what the ramifications of that are, and just trying to get a factual presentation done in a nonpartisan way, so that anyone interested, and I hope some people are, will come away with a deeper understanding of the importance of that event and what it means towards the threat to our democracy that a lot of us perceive.

Dick Gephardt: It's a very fraught time that we live in today. Our citizens are divided, are polarized as much as I've ever seen in my lifetime. In fact, I think the polarization in the country is more or less equal to what we saw in 1860. To me, it's that serious. To think that everybody's going to look at this fact situation the same way? It's just not going to happen.

Dick Gephardt: But for those that are interested, that haven't made up their mind of what went on January the 6th, my hope is that that presentation tonight and what's going to take place in the next few days, weeks, will give them as much of a nonpartisan factual presentation as can be done.

Weston Wamp: As I watched last night, I was surprised. Some of my perspective changed in hearing the intensity of some of the language that Attorney General Barr used, recollecting his conversations with the president. I was surprised, frankly, to see Jason Miller of the Trump campaign speak so candidly about his perception that the election was not stolen. Even Ivanka Trump voicing her, "acceptance," using her words, of what Bill Barr had said. That change is somewhat eerie, because now we know the people closest to the president at the time, they knew nothing unusual had happened.

Dick Gephardt: That's right. They knew it and they conveyed that information to the president. And so, he had to know that at least all of his advisors or his major advisors were telling him that he did not win the election. Even in the face of that, he persisted and still persists today in conveying his belief that the election was stolen and that he really got elected. There's no excuse anymore for him to say he didn't know. He did know, but I'm sure he could say he just didn't believe it. Or he didn't believe them.

Dick Gephardt: It really makes the facts that the presentation last night started have more credibility. Because you had his daughter, his attorney general, testifying beginning last night that they had told the president that he did not win the election. That he lost the election. That's pretty hard to rebut, but the president can still say, "They weren't right and I didn't believe them. That's why I went forward with what I went forward with."

Dick Gephardt: You always are where you are here with this facts situation. It's kind of like, "He said, she said." People have different views of the facts. The people that believe what he has said about the election will continue to believe it. I'm sorry to say.

Weston Wamp: For a moment, just to speak personally from experience. Your decades on the Hill to the highest levels of leadership in Congress. You certainly worked closely with and benefited from the work and sacrifice of Capitol Hill Police officers. At a much smaller level, for 16 years of my life, I thought these men and women were real giants. They all are so wonderful and revered among congressional families.

Weston Wamp: The video, much of which was new, I thought was jarring. I even saw a lot of fellow Republicans say that, while they didn't necessarily agree with certain dispositions of this commission, that they still were moved by that video evidence. Just your thoughts about what we saw.

Dick Gephardt: It was a new video that I don't think any of us had ever seen. It was very violent. Obviously, you could see that from prior videos, but this made it more clear that some of these folks were really physically attacking police officers. Yes, these people are heroes. When I was leader for 13 years, I had a Capitol Police detail with me all the time. They drove me to and from my residence in DC. They were in my office at all times.

Dick Gephardt: We had death threats and all the things you hear about. Not as much as today, but we had them. These people were like part of my family. After 9/11, they stayed outside my house on 24-hour duty, because nobody knew what was really going to happen. To see these people attacked for just doing their job is really jarring information. They never should have been subjected to this. And I just hope and pray that this kind of thing never happens again in our country.

Weston Wamp: What are you hoping to see in the hearings to come that you didn't necessarily see last night?

Dick Gephardt: Well, I think they'll just put more factual information out. They gave you most of their conclusions last night. My hope is that there will be a bigger, better fact base laid down. To me, the main hope for this set of hearings is simply that, for those that are interested and want to be informed about what really happened, will be motivated to do what all of us have to do as citizens for this country to continue to have valid elections.

Dick Gephardt: That's the real worry that I and many people like me have today. That we no longer are going to have valid elections that people trust and believe in. At the end of the day, democracy is of, by, and for the people. If the people don't protect it and carry out their duties as citizens, then it's not going to persist and survive. What do I mean by that? I mean, everybody ought to vote. Everybody ought to use their ability, their gift of being able to vote. We ought to have 95% turnout at every election. We don't have that. We don't even get close to that, but that's what it should be.

Dick Gephardt: Secondly, people can volunteer to be election workers. Or they can run for election worker offices in their local community, because the process of having an election is a complicated process. It takes thousands of people who are involved in getting the people to vote and getting them to be able to vote. And then counting the votes and reporting the count. Some of my old friends, secretaries of state from states both Republicans and Democrats have said to me in the last few years, "Whenever we have a successful federal election, it's a miracle." And it really is.

Dick Gephardt: And if you look back at 2020, we barely had a successful valid election. If people like the secretary of state of Georgia, if local election workers in Michigan and Pennsylvania and some of the other states had not stood up against the pressure that was coming on them from President Trump and the White House, to change the votes or to do something irregular with the voting process, this wouldn't have been a valid election. We missed this bullet by an inch.

Dick Gephardt: And so, we need more citizens, all citizens if we could get them, to carry out their duties and their ability to have an election in this country. If we can't have valid elections anymore, we're gone as a democracy. We're going to be an authoritarian model just like most countries are. That's my hope for these hearings. That it will motivate Americans to do all the things they can do.

Weston Wamp: Final question. You alluded to this, but why does this matter so much right now? There's people on my side of the aisle, just months away from a big midterm election, who recognize ... I don't doubt that the timing here is not ideal. Their focus is, "Well, this has been a year-and-a-half in the past." But speak to the historic consequences of those who lose elections in a self-governed country not accepting loss.

Weston Wamp: I just personally don't think the stakes could be any higher. Here, we really are the experimenters. We're the ones who've carried out the longest standing experiment in self-government. Central to that, so central that we take it for granted, is that the experiment only works if people who lose elections lose gracefully. Or at least accept that they lost.

Dick Gephardt: It's an excellent point. And it needs to be made over and over and over again. Look, before 1789, there were no democracies. We were the first real democracy. Our ancestors gave us a magical gift that we could govern ourselves. No human on earth before then could do that. It's based on a simple proposition that the people have the capability to carry out the duties that they have to be good citizens. To be voting citizens that can produce a valid election that they will trust.

Dick Gephardt: And that's the important word. Believe in the results. If we routinely now have candidates who lose factually, but won't lose in practice, because they won't accept those results and they insist on not conceding the election and letting the person who won be sworn into office ... Then, we're going to break the trust of the American people in this very important process.

Dick Gephardt: I was leader of the Democrats for 13, 14 years. I saw a lot of big tough issues get resolved in the Congress with Republicans and Democrats often voting together to resolve big conflicts. I was always in awe that, after we had the vote, the people out in the country who were offended by the outcome and wanted a different outcome were willing to accept, grudgingly often, the results of that vote.

Dick Gephardt: Because they thought the process by which the decision was made was fair. They trusted that the process had been fair. The same thing applies to having elections of individuals to represent us or to be a governor or whatever. And so, we're playing with the most important element in our democracy, when we start questioning the results of elections and not accepting the results and having a peaceful transfer of authority.

Weston Wamp: Leader Gephardt, thanks for your time today. Thanks for your efforts to work across the aisle to protect the institutions that make us America.

Dick Gephardt: Well, it's my honor to do it. I'm a simple little guy. Grew up in the city of St. Louis. I had nothing. My parents were poor. I had public education. I got to go to college and law school from scholarships. This is the country. This is the land of opportunity. It still is today.

Dick Gephardt: We have to protect it for our children and our grandchildren and future generations. I'm never going to stop working on that. And I so appreciate you and your father and others that are on the other side of the aisle that we can work with. Because we all believe in this democracy. We want to keep this gift that we were all given many, many years ago.

Weston Wamp: Thanks for listening to “Swamp Stories,” presented by Issue One, the country's leading political reform organization that unites Republicans, Democrats, and independents to fix our broken political system. Please subscribe to the podcast and share it with your friends. Even better, rate and review it on iTunes to help us reach more listeners. You can find out more at swampstories.org. I'm your host Weston Wamp. A special thank you to executive producer, Ethan Rome, senior producer Evan Ottenfeld, producer Sydney Richards, and editor Parker from ParkerPodcasting.com. “Swamp Stories” was recorded in Tennessee, edited in Texas and can be found wherever you listen to podcasts.

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